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essexgull

8849 posts
First used 12/01/17

#31
08/11/2018 at 19:02

A tiresome way of holding a debate.



ESSEX GULL  

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Obadiah

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6420 posts
First used 09/01/17

#32
08/11/2018 at 19:50

Quote Quote by essexgull on 08/11/2018 at 19:02
A tiresome way of holding a debate.



ESSEX GULL


There's no debate. You made a number of statements which show you have no idea what you're writing about.

Here's three things for you to consider:

If an administrator is appointed within 2 years of the Allams taking the parachute payments he or she can demand the money back.

The administrator will take a generous cut of any millions repaid by the Allams giving him or her a big incentive to chase the money.

The decision whether to disqualify the Allams has nothing to do with HMRC.

Google is your friend. There is plenty of free advice on administration and disqualification for those interested enough to look.  

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RichardCheatham - City AFC

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7172 posts
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#33
09/11/2018 at 07:51

It seems a fair point or two by Essex Gull. Can’t see anything wrong there Obi. 

Bunkers Hill - See you in the next life 

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Obadiah

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#34
09/11/2018 at 08:47

Quote Quote by RichardCheatham - City AFC on 09/11/2018 at 07:51
It seems a fair point or two by Essex Gull. Can’t see anything wrong there Obi.


If Allamhouse takes the £35 million parachute payment (I'm not sure that figure's correct though) in January and puts Hull City in administration in February they will have to pay all the money back to the administrator. The administrator will then use the money to pay all the creditors (including Allamhouse) on a pro rata basis after charging his fees and expenses. I'm not sure but he may just use the money to pay the football debts and expenses in which case Allamhouse may get next to nothing.

The administrator will then sell the club. The Allams could do all that themselves for a fraction of the cost and maximise their return. 

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potential

2263 posts
First used 09/01/17

#35
09/11/2018 at 11:58

Papa sounds stuck between a rock and a hard place. The disagreements above could well be a mirror of the sale negotiations. Just exactly what purpose the parachute payment is used for. If Papa keeps it he will have to trickle it back at 100k a week to avoid administration, similarly any new owners. But the new owners are expected to pay for this privilege. While also funding a revamp of the squad to achieve a return to the promised land.

The promised land that gave half a billion? And City now face administration, or back where it all began, bank of Papa keeps putting money in.

Hardly surprising junior is in bad books. 

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RichardCheatham - City AFC

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#36
09/11/2018 at 13:57

Obi is wholly incorrect here.

No googling, just qualifications and many years empirical experience. It might be what you want to happen, but it won’t.

For there to be ANY wobbling of events one would have to prove fraudulent trading. Repaying (we assume) an on demand debt isn’t fraudulent in any way shape or form. And what other bills are there to pay? Bits and bobs. Nothing. Certainly not in comparison to the main company creditor, the Allamhouse Co.

It’s all over bar the shouting. Them or A N Other putting the club in to administration is neither here nor there. People of Hull think they are shitbags anyway but if they care even a little bit some minor default with tax payments would push the button.

You’ll get a chance to sit and watch it.  

Bunkers Hill - See you in the next life 

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RichardCheatham - City AFC

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#37
09/11/2018 at 14:11

Quote Quote by Obadiah on 09/11/2018 at 08:47


The administrator will then sell the club. The Allams could do all that themselves for a fraction of the cost and maximise their return.


For a quid. Not much return out of £1. 

Bunkers Hill - See you in the next life 

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Obadiah

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6420 posts
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#38
09/11/2018 at 15:41

Quote Quote by RichardCheatham - City AFC on 09/11/2018 at 13:57
Obi is wholly incorrect here.

No googling, just qualifications and many years empirical experience. It might be what you want to happen, but it won’t.

For there to be ANY wobbling of events one would have to prove fraudulent trading. Repaying (we assume) an on demand debt isn’t fraudulent in any way shape or form. And what other bills are there to pay? Bits and bobs. Nothing. Certainly not in comparison to the main company creditor, the Allamhouse Co.

It’s all over bar the shouting. Them or A N Other putting the club in to administration is neither here nor there. People of Hull think they are shitbags anyway but if they care even a little bit some minor default with tax payments would push the button.

You’ll get a chance to sit and watch it.


I'm wholly right. Google is my friend.

https://www.companyrescue.co.uk/guides-kn owledge/guides/what-is-a-preference-under -the-insolvency-act-1986-3748/

If the Allams did what you're suggesting it would make the administrator extremely wealthy, entirely at their expense. There isn't an administrator in England that wouldn't pursue them for the money.

Hull City's other debts include transfer fees owed, wages, tax, compensation for breach of lease and other credit agreements. The administrator would want as much cash as possible to continue paying the players' wages. Recovering £35 million will go a long way towards achieving that.




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hullphil

887 posts
First used 09/01/17

Group
Hull City

#39
09/11/2018 at 18:02

Doesn't all of this simply demonstrate that Allam was right, he wasn't rich enough to compete in the PL.... Billionaire's p L at ground....

We as a club have never turned over as much money, and yet we find ourselves in more debt than ever....

I hate the PL....  

Keep it, don't hoof it... 

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hullphil

887 posts
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Hull City

#40
09/11/2018 at 18:03

"Billionaire's playground..."  

Keep it, don't hoof it... 

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essexgull

8849 posts
First used 12/01/17

#41
09/11/2018 at 18:08

Quote Quote by Obadiah on 09/11/2018 at 08:47


If Allamhouse takes the £35 million parachute payment (I'm not sure that figure's correct though) in January and puts Hull City in administration in February they will have to pay all the money back to the administrator. The administrator will then use the money to pay all the creditors (including Allamhouse) on a pro rata basis after charging his fees and expenses. I'm not sure but he may just use the money to pay the football debts and expenses in which case Allamhouse may get next to nothing.

The administrator will then sell the club. The Allams could do all that themselves for a fraction of the cost and maximise their return.


Allamhouse will not 'take' the parachute payment. Allamhouse will be paid back ca. 50% of an owed debt. They are two separate entities in the eyes of commercial law. Its no different from a parent company pulling out capital from a subsidiary and allowing it to fail. Happens frequently.

It's hard enough for the courts to strip director rights from gypsy scammers who prey on the elderly telling that their roof tiles need replacing, let alone directors of half a billion pound, profitable companies.

As an aside, I would guess that the club would be put in administration over the summer period, when the league and purchase situation is clear, not in February.

The issue is that the club is only worth what someone will pay for it - assets are wiped out by the value of remaining contracts of the players. There is more potential value to the Allans for running the club to the ground as a tax write off than there is selling it at a reasonable price, due to the debt vehicle that has funded it over the years. Hence, why the debt was never paid down.


ESSEX GULL  

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Obadiah

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#42
09/11/2018 at 19:35

Quote Quote by essexgull on 09/11/2018 at 18:08


Allamhouse will not 'take' the parachute payment. Allamhouse will be paid back ca. 50% of an owed debt. They are two separate entities in the eyes of commercial law. Its no different from a parent company pulling out capital from a subsidiary and allowing it to fail. Happens frequently.

It's hard enough for the courts to strip director rights from gypsy scammers who prey on the elderly telling that their roof tiles need replacing, let alone directors of half a billion pound, profitable companies.

As an aside, I would guess that the club would be put in administration over the summer period, when the league and purchase situation is clear, not in February.

The issue is that the club is only worth what someone will pay for it - assets are wiped out by the value of remaining contracts of the players. There is more potential value to the Allans for running the club to the ground as a tax write off than there is selling it at a reasonable price, due to the debt vehicle that has funded it over the years. Hence, why the debt was never paid down.


ESSEX GULL



How about a former England manager being stripped of his right to be a director?

As I said before there is no debating with someone who shows no inclination to do a simple google search. However much you repeat yourself you are still talking rot.

If there are other creditors remaining unpaid he administrator can take back any monies paid to Allamhouse from the parachute payments whether the club is placed in administration in February, during the summer or at any time during the next two years. If there are no creditors other than Allamhouse why bother?

Both Assem and Ehab Allam are perfectly capable of selling the club without the help of an administrator who'll charge a fortune. All they have to agree is how much of debt is written off when the shares change hands for a pound. The longer they leave the sale the less money they get.

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essexgull

8849 posts
First used 12/01/17

#43
09/11/2018 at 20:24

From my experience, if Allan House are paid back ca. 50% of their loan by Hull City, as long as other creditors have received around the same percentage amount already from the club (ie. A player bought in 2016 for 6 million, with 3 million paid up front), then they will not be identified as preferable creditors and so not liable for any claim from administrators.

An ongoing rent, such as the Kenhom from the council, will be 'less' equal as they can, in theory, rent out the ground to someone else.

As I've informed Garry, I've been told that Assam is demanding to sell. They've dropped their price. The problem is that no buyer is offering £25 million, which offers the dilemma whether to trust a dodgy bank's IOU and take the 8 or so on offer, or to run the club down, take the £34 and deal with the legal consequences.

Either way, it is not great news. You don't want the club in administration, nor do you want it sold to a buyer who doesn't have £25 to buy it.


ESSEX GULL  

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Obadiah

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#44
09/11/2018 at 20:56

Quote Quote by essexgull on 09/11/2018 at 20:24
From my experience, if Allan House are paid back ca. 50% of their loan by Hull City, as long as other creditors have received around the same percentage amount already from the club (ie. A player bought in 2016 for 6 million, with 3 million paid up front), then they will not be identified as preferable creditors and so not liable for any claim from administrators.

An ongoing rent, such as the Kenhom from the council, will be 'less' equal as they can, in theory, rent out the ground to someone else.

As I've informed Garry, I've been told that Assam is demanding to sell. They've dropped their price. The problem is that no buyer is offering £25 million, which offers the dilemma whether to trust a dodgy bank's IOU and take the 8 or so on offer, or to run the club down, take the £34 and deal with the legal consequences.

Either way, it is not great news. You don't want the club in administration, nor do you want it sold to a buyer who doesn't have £25 to buy it.


ESSEX GULL


Keep trying. Transfer fees are subject to contract law. Its irrelevant what deposit was paid and how many instalments were made. Paying themselves £30 million whilst paying other creditors 50p in the pound would result in the administrator reclaiming the money. The fees on getting that money in would be enormous. A nice little earner for any administrator.

Hull City doesn't pay rent to the Council. It pays rent to the SMC. If City goes into administration the SMC is insolvent and its lease could revert back to the Council if they have the balls to do anything about it.

We agree that the discussion between the Allams and the potential buyers is over how much debt to write off. The longer the discussions continue the more they'll have to write off.

Hull City are due less than £40 million this season from the parachute payment. I'd expect at least half that to have been paid already. If they can't sell they'd be better off keeping the club and trying to avoid relegation.  

Post edited on 09/11/2018 at 20:57 by Obadiah

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RichardCheatham - City AFC

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7172 posts
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#45
09/11/2018 at 23:42

I’d cut down on the sauce if I were you Obi.

Save your googling for porn and how to spell words like barracuda.  

Bunkers Hill - See you in the next life 

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