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candw

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#46
13/08/2018 at 16:41

So when they are shagging these sad young girls, they are thinking of Allah and doing his works?

What a twat!  

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exiled CITY AFC

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#47
14/08/2018 at 08:57

No don’t debate like a teenager.

You should know by now how much the Quran ‘others’ the none believer.
You should also know how the Hadith documents the life of the so-styled perfect human (reason be upon him) who himself fornicated with a child bride.
You should also know that polygamy is allowed so long as you can provide for the additional women - seemingly that extends to keeping them stupified and supplying pay as you go for their mobiles.
You should also know the common defence these men are offering which isn’t being reported - yet.

You seem to be in denial.  

Let it never be said that I was silent when they needed me - William Wilberforce 

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exiled CITY AFC

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#48
14/08/2018 at 09:08

Quote Quote by Obadiah on 13/08/2018 at 16:31


There is no evasion of any issues.

I have never said wearing a burka empowers women for fairly obvious reasons, it doesn't. Giving women the choice over what to wear empowers them. Taking away the right to wear a burka doesn't empower them but subjugates them.

You absolve the men who systematically raped and abused young women and girls by giving it a political and religious dimension. I would the abuse down to sexual gratification, power and opportunity, plain and simple. There have been orgainised sexual abuse of children by white Christians for hundreds of years. It is not just historic but is happening now, they just haven't been caught. It has nothing to do with religion. Same as abuse by football coaches as nothing to do with football.

The bringing to justice of Muslim abusers was the result of an heroic struggle by the victims, social workers and a minority in the criminal justice system. They are real heroes of the working class.

I am dubious about anyone who highlights the rape of young women and the sexual abuse of children by Muslim men but doesn't say anything about the abuse by white men.

Tommy Robinson hinders the struggle for justice which is why he isn't a working class hero defending the rights of victims.


Obi as you know I went through the catholic system with all its delights. My half brothers went to Ampleforth and our family is still dealing with the fallout decades on. Child abuse is something I have mentioned in both its contexts. One form the police say they understand well, can infiltrate and disrupt. The historic inquiries, and ongoing trials are all evidence of this. This new form of abuse the police say they are behind the curve on is to me a chance to nip in the bud (relatively speaking) so our kids are not finding out about abuse long after the perpetrators are dead.

More generally, the more I look the more I see that Islam (as with all revealed wisdom religions) has strong political, totalitarian and fascist themes that bring a lot of concern. Unlike say Rastafarianism it’s not benign so are we allowed to debate it intelligently or will it always be the trigger to cries of racism and bigotry? 

Let it never be said that I was silent when they needed me - William Wilberforce 

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Obadiah

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#49
14/08/2018 at 22:51

Quote Quote by exiled CITY AFC on 14/08/2018 at 09:08


Obi as you know I went through the catholic system with all its delights. My half brothers went to Ampleforth and our family is still dealing with the fallout decades on. Child abuse is something I have mentioned in both its contexts. One form the police say they understand well, can infiltrate and disrupt. The historic inquiries, and ongoing trials are all evidence of this. This new form of abuse the police say they are behind the curve on is to me a chance to nip in the bud (relatively speaking) so our kids are not finding out about abuse long after the perpetrators are dead.

More generally, the more I look the more I see that Islam (as with all revealed wisdom religions) has strong political, totalitarian and fascist themes that bring a lot of concern. Unlike say Rastafarianism it’s not benign so are we allowed to debate it intelligently or will it always be the trigger to cries of racism and bigotry?


I haven't seen any rational debate of Islam from the right, just abuse for their own political agenda. They can no longer be overtly racist so use Muslims as an excuse to gain an audience.

Christianity has strong political, totalitarian and fascist themes, all religions including Rastafarianism are the same. So why single out Islam. The reduction in the influence of Christainity in this country took hundreds of years. The same will be true of Islam. Attacking the religion of millions in the way the right have done will mean that this process will take longer.

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exiled CITY AFC

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#50
15/08/2018 at 21:07

Nah your missing the argument re: the burka
Still you agree with BOJO

BTW

ITV ran a poll to see if Boris needed to apologise - 92% of the great British public said NO he shouldn’t.

Like the EU ITV didn’t like the answer so they pulled the poll and switched it to ask if it was ‘islamaphobic’ whatever that’s supposed to mean...

65% said NO it wasn’t

Meanwhile back in the bubble of the media / Westminster they are becoming more and more detached from the public they purport to serve.  

Let it never be said that I was silent when they needed me - William Wilberforce 

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Obadiah

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#51
16/08/2018 at 07:41

Quote Quote by exiled CITY AFC on 15/08/2018 at 21:07
Nah your missing the argument re: the burka
Still you agree with BOJO

BTW

ITV ran a poll to see if Boris needed to apologise - 92% of the great British public said NO he shouldn’t.

Like the EU ITV didn’t like the answer so they pulled the poll and switched it to ask if it was ‘islamaphobic’ whatever that’s supposed to mean...

65% said NO it wasn’t

Meanwhile back in the bubble of the media / Westminster they are becoming more and more detached from the public they purport to serve.



I'm not missing the point. I understand what you've written and disagree with it.

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exiled CITY AFC

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#52
16/08/2018 at 08:24

So you agree with Boris’ position then on policy.  

Let it never be said that I was silent when they needed me - William Wilberforce 

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Obadiah

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#53
16/08/2018 at 09:39

Quote Quote by exiled CITY AFC on 16/08/2018 at 08:24
So you agree with Boris’ position then on policy.


I thought you wanted an adult debate about whether the burka should be banned.

I'm not sure Boris believes in a woman's right to chose what she wears otherwise he wouldn't have insulted them and pushed the question of a ban up the agenda. Didn't he once say we shouldn't leave the EU and then changed his mind? Didn't he say he'd lay down before the bulldozers to stop the expansion of Heathrow and then had a more pressing engagement when he could have voted against it? Would you buy a used car from him?

My position is clear. A woman should be able to chose what she wears. That includes Muslim women wearing a burka as well as Muslim women refusing to follow the Imam's dress code. The Imam's want to force them to wear a burka and middle aged white men want to force them to show their faces. In neither case do the women themselves have any say.  

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candw

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#54
16/08/2018 at 11:21

"So you agree with Boris’ position then on policy?" he asked disingenuously , pretending Johnson's statement was anything other than a dog whistle to the wavering UKIP-leaning fringe of his party in a leadership tester.

Policy my arse!

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exiled CITY AFC

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#55
16/08/2018 at 15:32

Quote Quote by Obadiah on 16/08/2018 at 09:39


I thought you wanted an adult debate about whether the burka should be banned.

I'm not sure Boris believes in a woman's right to chose what she wears otherwise he wouldn't have insulted them and pushed the question of a ban up the agenda. Didn't he once say we shouldn't leave the EU and then changed his mind? Didn't he say he'd lay down before the bulldozers to stop the expansion of Heathrow and then had a more pressing engagement when he could have voted against it? Would you buy a used car from him?

My position is clear. A woman should be able to chose what she wears. That includes Muslim women wearing a burka as well as Muslim women refusing to follow the Imam's dress code. The Imam's want to force them to wear a burka and middle aged white men want to force them to show their faces. In neither case do the women themselves have any say.


He was answering that exact question - should there be a ban - he said know and stated your last paragraph almost verbatim. It was at the end that he added that his personal view from an aesthetic perspective was bin-bags and bank robbers.

What not true is your assertion that it’s middle aged white men that want them to uncover. Attitude surveys show it’s their fellow women that are the majority that want them to uncover. The trouble is the more you look into the religion and how it evolves as the Believers increase in a given location the more of its social mores need to be accommodated for.

Example: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-4 5207086

Let it never be said that I was silent when they needed me - William Wilberforce 

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sbwtiger tigers

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#56
16/08/2018 at 16:03

Quote Quote by exiled CITY AFC on 10/08/2018 at 11:57


Check how many signed the petition for his release - he is a popular person amongst the working class - get over it.



The change.org petition is an interesting debating point. Try these for size. The proposer was anonymous and the detail was factually incorrect.
Some people will sign anything.  

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Obadiah

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#57
16/08/2018 at 22:54

Quote Quote by exiled CITY AFC on 16/08/2018 at 15:32


He was answering that exact question - should there be a ban - he said no and stated your last paragraph almost verbatim. It was at the end that he added that his personal view from an aesthetic perspective was bin-bags and bank robbers.

What not true is your assertion that it’s middle aged white men that want them to uncover. Attitude surveys show it’s their fellow women that are the majority that want them to uncover. The trouble is the more you look into the religion and how it evolves as the Believers increase in a given location the more of its social mores need to be accommodated for.

Example: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-4 5207086



Like I said Boris is untrustworthy. he says one thing when he means another. Why would he compare women wearing a burka to bank robbers? How many bank robbers wear long dresses? Not many. He could have compared them to the Klan but didn't for obvious reasons.

I thought you were a middle aged white man and wanted a ban.

Interesting article but she's not wearing a burka. Fist pumps etc should not be accommodated by your reasonaing.



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exiled CITY AFC

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#58
17/08/2018 at 10:13

I am merely asking questions about assimilation that inform our societies cohesiveness and harmony. Many cultures have assimilated into British life. Some haven’t and Trevor Phillips’ groundbreaking research proved the link between mono-cultures living within the UK and societal problems. We have had immigration with strong theorcratic traditions before and we have degrees of integration. What I think is new is that my reading of Islam is that the Quran is fairly normal cut-n-pasted mono theism in the abrahamic traditon but in the Hadith and the Sunna it makes very special totalitarian claims for itself and has way too much to say about me as a non-believer that I find troubling.

These social norms and accommodations are the early rounds of many to come based on my reading of the texts...

Discuss?  

Let it never be said that I was silent when they needed me - William Wilberforce 

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Obadiah

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#59
17/08/2018 at 13:09

Quote Quote by exiled CITY AFC on 17/08/2018 at 10:13
I am merely asking questions about assimilation that inform our societies cohesiveness and harmony. Many cultures have assimilated into British life. Some haven’t and Trevor Phillips’ groundbreaking research proved the link between mono-cultures living within the UK and societal problems. We have had immigration with strong theorcratic traditions before and we have degrees of integration. What I think is new is that my reading of Islam is that the Quran is fairly normal cut-n-pasted mono theism in the abrahamic traditon but in the Hadith and the Sunna it makes very special totalitarian claims for itself and has way too much to say about me as a non-believer that I find troubling.

These social norms and accommodations are the early rounds of many to come based on my reading of the texts...

Discuss?



Religion sets out to control its followers. It was the same for the Catholic Church, the Church of England, Buddism as well as Islam. Over time the link between church and the working class gets weaker and weaker. The rich always avoided the strictures of the church because they were rich. The same will be true of Muslim communities in this country. There is a conflict within Muslim communities between those who want the benefits of western life and values and those that don't. That conflict is inevitable.

The attack on Islam, either the war in Iraq or on the right to wear a burka, makes integration harder not easier. If someone attacked your community you would, I expect, stand foresquare behind that community.

Adding in the money from the Middle East and the imperialist aspirations of Saudi Arabia you get the development of a militant Islam that is linked to the aspirations of a nation state. Nothing much to do with religion, more to do with common or garden politics.

You may say that the influence of Islam will be too slow and I'd agree with you. However the more pressure you put on Muslim communities the stronger the influence of Islam will be.

Within my lifetime I have seen the Cathloic Church go from having absolute power in Ireland to losing a referendum on abortion. Religion is not immune from the working class wanting more freedoms not less. In time the same will happen in the Muslim communities.  

Post edited on 17/08/2018 at 13:10 by Obadiah

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exiled CITY AFC

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#60
17/08/2018 at 20:32

You make a good point about the Catholic Church and it’s loss of power in our lifetime which I believe has been mirrored in many establishments. ‘The establishment’ as a whole has far less power on people as it did. What’s mind boggling to me is how we would readily accept a re-run with another religion. This finally came out in the BBC today https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44729727 but say what you like about him Tommy Robinson covered this well over a year ago. I met a BBC news guy last night, coked up and a real pain but what was alarming was his take on this issue - totally clueless - yet opinionated. A working class guy at one point in his life from the north west but fully metropolitanated and living in a parallel universe. He decides what stories hit the news - or not.

Utterly chilling.  

Let it never be said that I was silent when they needed me - William Wilberforce 

77 posts. < 1 2 3 4 5 6 > Show 15 30 50