Hull City Forum
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| | 26422 posts #46 | So when they are shagging these sad young girls, they are thinking of Allah and doing his works? | ||||
| | 11465 posts #47 | No don’t debate like a teenager. | ||||
Let it never be said that I was silent when they needed me - William Wilberforce | ||||||
| | 11465 posts #48 |
Obi as you know I went through the catholic system with all its delights. My half brothers went to Ampleforth and our family is still dealing with the fallout decades on. Child abuse is something I have mentioned in both its contexts. One form the police say they understand well, can infiltrate and disrupt. The historic inquiries, and ongoing trials are all evidence of this. This new form of abuse the police say they are behind the curve on is to me a chance to nip in the bud (relatively speaking) so our kids are not finding out about abuse long after the perpetrators are dead. More generally, the more I look the more I see that Islam (as with all revealed wisdom religions) has strong political, totalitarian and fascist themes that bring a lot of concern. Unlike say Rastafarianism it’s not benign so are we allowed to debate it intelligently or will it always be the trigger to cries of racism and bigotry? | ||||
Let it never be said that I was silent when they needed me - William Wilberforce | ||||||
| | 6442 posts #49 |
I haven't seen any rational debate of Islam from the right, just abuse for their own political agenda. They can no longer be overtly racist so use Muslims as an excuse to gain an audience. Christianity has strong political, totalitarian and fascist themes, all religions including Rastafarianism are the same. So why single out Islam. The reduction in the influence of Christainity in this country took hundreds of years. The same will be true of Islam. Attacking the religion of millions in the way the right have done will mean that this process will take longer. | ||||
| | 11465 posts #50 | Nah your missing the argument re: the burka | ||||
Let it never be said that I was silent when they needed me - William Wilberforce | ||||||
| | 6442 posts #51 |
I'm not missing the point. I understand what you've written and disagree with it. | ||||
| | 11465 posts #52 | So you agree with Boris’ position then on policy. | ||||
Let it never be said that I was silent when they needed me - William Wilberforce | ||||||
| | 6442 posts #53 |
I thought you wanted an adult debate about whether the burka should be banned. I'm not sure Boris believes in a woman's right to chose what she wears otherwise he wouldn't have insulted them and pushed the question of a ban up the agenda. Didn't he once say we shouldn't leave the EU and then changed his mind? Didn't he say he'd lay down before the bulldozers to stop the expansion of Heathrow and then had a more pressing engagement when he could have voted against it? Would you buy a used car from him? My position is clear. A woman should be able to chose what she wears. That includes Muslim women wearing a burka as well as Muslim women refusing to follow the Imam's dress code. The Imam's want to force them to wear a burka and middle aged white men want to force them to show their faces. In neither case do the women themselves have any say. | ||||
| | 26422 posts #54 | "So you agree with Boris’ position then on policy?" he asked disingenuously , pretending Johnson's statement was anything other than a dog whistle to the wavering UKIP-leaning fringe of his party in a leadership tester. | ||||
| | 11465 posts #55 |
He was answering that exact question - should there be a ban - he said know and stated your last paragraph almost verbatim. It was at the end that he added that his personal view from an aesthetic perspective was bin-bags and bank robbers. What not true is your assertion that it’s middle aged white men that want them to uncover. Attitude surveys show it’s their fellow women that are the majority that want them to uncover. The trouble is the more you look into the religion and how it evolves as the Believers increase in a given location the more of its social mores need to be accommodated for. Example: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-4 5207086 | ||||
Let it never be said that I was silent when they needed me - William Wilberforce | ||||||
| | 1123 posts #56 |
The change.org petition is an interesting debating point. Try these for size. The proposer was anonymous and the detail was factually incorrect. Some people will sign anything. | ||||
| | 6442 posts #57 |
Like I said Boris is untrustworthy. he says one thing when he means another. Why would he compare women wearing a burka to bank robbers? How many bank robbers wear long dresses? Not many. He could have compared them to the Klan but didn't for obvious reasons. I thought you were a middle aged white man and wanted a ban. Interesting article but she's not wearing a burka. Fist pumps etc should not be accommodated by your reasonaing. | ||||
| | 11465 posts #58 | I am merely asking questions about assimilation that inform our societies cohesiveness and harmony. Many cultures have assimilated into British life. Some haven’t and Trevor Phillips’ groundbreaking research proved the link between mono-cultures living within the UK and societal problems. We have had immigration with strong theorcratic traditions before and we have degrees of integration. What I think is new is that my reading of Islam is that the Quran is fairly normal cut-n-pasted mono theism in the abrahamic traditon but in the Hadith and the Sunna it makes very special totalitarian claims for itself and has way too much to say about me as a non-believer that I find troubling. | ||||
Let it never be said that I was silent when they needed me - William Wilberforce | ||||||
| | 6442 posts #59 |
Religion sets out to control its followers. It was the same for the Catholic Church, the Church of England, Buddism as well as Islam. Over time the link between church and the working class gets weaker and weaker. The rich always avoided the strictures of the church because they were rich. The same will be true of Muslim communities in this country. There is a conflict within Muslim communities between those who want the benefits of western life and values and those that don't. That conflict is inevitable. The attack on Islam, either the war in Iraq or on the right to wear a burka, makes integration harder not easier. If someone attacked your community you would, I expect, stand foresquare behind that community. Adding in the money from the Middle East and the imperialist aspirations of Saudi Arabia you get the development of a militant Islam that is linked to the aspirations of a nation state. Nothing much to do with religion, more to do with common or garden politics. You may say that the influence of Islam will be too slow and I'd agree with you. However the more pressure you put on Muslim communities the stronger the influence of Islam will be. Within my lifetime I have seen the Cathloic Church go from having absolute power in Ireland to losing a referendum on abortion. Religion is not immune from the working class wanting more freedoms not less. In time the same will happen in the Muslim communities. Post edited on 17/08/2018 at 13:10 by Obadiah | ||||
| | 11465 posts #60 | You make a good point about the Catholic Church and it’s loss of power in our lifetime which I believe has been mirrored in many establishments. ‘The establishment’ as a whole has far less power on people as it did. What’s mind boggling to me is how we would readily accept a re-run with another religion. This finally came out in the BBC today https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44729727 but say what you like about him Tommy Robinson covered this well over a year ago. I met a BBC news guy last night, coked up and a real pain but what was alarming was his take on this issue - totally clueless - yet opinionated. A working class guy at one point in his life from the north west but fully metropolitanated and living in a parallel universe. He decides what stories hit the news - or not. | ||||
Let it never be said that I was silent when they needed me - William Wilberforce | ||||||
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