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candw

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#31
07/08/2018 at 19:16

In the many times you read Marx, you must have come across the idea that a semi-feudal and lightly industrialised society like Russia was just the place not to start Communism. China, under Mao, was an even worse place to try. Both of those countries shut themselves off from the rest of the world and refused to take any ideas from abroad to help them develop. Stolid State Capitalism ruled.

Deng Xiao Ping started the change in China and the current Chairman is accelerating it. Xi's China is galloping towards Communism at the moment. It seems he has read Marx - at least once.

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candw

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#32
07/08/2018 at 19:21

Is it exiled that keeps saying that the majority of the jobs in the future do not exist at present? What would you have people study, gull, in that scenario?

Philosophy, media studies, history, fine arts etc sound fine to me. And an ability to study, of course.

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exiled CITY AFC

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#33
07/08/2018 at 23:02

Quote Quote by candw on 07/08/2018 at 19:16
In the many times you read Marx, you must have come across the idea that a semi-feudal and lightly industrialised society like Russia was just the place not to start Communism. China, under Mao, was an even worse place to try. Both of those countries shut themselves off from the rest of the world and refused to take any ideas from abroad to help them develop. Stolid State Capitalism ruled.

Deng Xiao Ping started the change in China and the current Chairman is accelerating it. Xi's China is galloping towards Communism at the moment. It seems he has read Marx - at least once.


The thing is Marx and Engels were observing capitalism through the lens of Manchester and the industrial revolution and their perspectives were highly suspect. In the classic middle class trope of observing in concerned hand wringing fashion the lives of the working class they made a case for industrialisation being a net bad for the formally rural workers based on some pretty flimsy numbers that today most statisticians would question. A 2% swing in mortality rate was used to decry the whole of industrialisation as a concept for the working class rather than actually ASK them why they came running en-masse from the serfdom of the fields where they ate, worked, and died in all weathers to those more attractive industrial jobs. Remember no one was force marched there and no one had removed the existing rural jobs. They went to industrialisation by choice. The whole premise of “the condition of the working class” which forms the whole base narrative for Marxism is one of worrying about victims of ‘a system’ rather than the reality of people exercising free and rational choices. Making the journey from feudal to industrial life willingly and under their own steam in their millions was not the behaviour of the oppressed. The title lacks a from-to perspective and a rear view mirror context AND it of course fails to predict the subsequent gains of the era of large scale sanitation, fresh water, rudimentary health care, infant mortality improvements, literacy and numeracy, increased skill levels and many other gains. Socially: Samuel Smiles in his book “self-help” more accurately documents the break from the traditional inherented wealth and limited access to education to the ‘self-made’ - ‘self educated’ entrepreneurs and cooperatives who usurped mucb traditional power.

Recent editions of ‘condition’ finally and honestly note it’s incomplete data and analysis BUT like Charlie Chaplin in modern times and endless worried-on-behalf-of-others-types of middle class perspectives the narrative was cast in the image of the beholders not those doing the work.

Let it never be said that I was silent when they needed me - William Wilberforce 

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Obadiah

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#34
08/08/2018 at 07:25

Quote Quote by exiled CITY AFC on 07/08/2018 at 23:02


The thing is Marx and Engels were observing capitalism through the lens of Manchester and the industrial revolution and their perspectives were highly suspect. In the classic middle class trope of observing in concerned hand wringing fashion the lives of the working class they made a case for industrialisation being a net bad for the formally rural workers based on some pretty flimsy numbers that today most statisticians would question.


I see you haven't read either Marx or Engels. Or if you have you have completely misunderstood them. Just to make it clear they thought the rise of capitalism was a good thing. However they recognised it limitations, many of which you have identified such as the lack of investment to increase productivity and the reasons for it.  

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exiled CITY AFC

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#35
08/08/2018 at 08:21

Obi - I know they proposed a life beyond capitalism

I was taking about Engels critique of the plight of the industrialised working class which I don’t accept

Let it never be said that I was silent when they needed me - William Wilberforce 

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Obadiah

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#36
08/08/2018 at 09:20

Quote Quote by exiled CITY AFC on 08/08/2018 at 08:21
Obi - I know they proposed a life beyond capitalism

I was taking about Engels critique of the plight of the industrialised working class which I don’t accept


If you are talking about his book the Condition of the Working Class it wasn't Engels' critique. He just extensively quoted the results of various Parliamentary Commissions. Parliament launched a number of enquiries in 1844 and published the results. Engels also quotes and responds the defence made by the capitalist class at the time. What other contemporaneous evidence is there to contradict the various Parliamentary Commissions? 

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candw

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#37
08/08/2018 at 11:15

So, exiled, you've told me all that before. Lots of times. Now, about Communism failing when it's been tried. Which it hasn't. But is now being pursued vigorously?  

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exiled CITY AFC

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#38
08/08/2018 at 17:36

You can argue that communism hasn’t been tried before because the classic Marxist conditions haven’t been met before various attempts have been made to build a communist society or you could say that this utopia is unworkable in practice because human nature and real economic behaviour has not been fully accounted for in the theory...

We will probably be able to get to a communist society right after we get the paperless office... 

Let it never be said that I was silent when they needed me - William Wilberforce 

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exiled CITY AFC

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#39
08/08/2018 at 17:44

Quote Quote by Obadiah on 08/08/2018 at 09:20


If you are talking about his book the Condition of the Working Class it wasn't Engels' critique. He just extensively quoted the results of various Parliamentary Commissions. Parliament launched a number of enquiries in 1844 and published the results. Engels also quotes and responds the defence made by the capitalist class at the time. What other contemporaneous evidence is there to contradict the various Parliamentary Commissions?


Well I posit that the mass voluntary movement of people to lives of greater value and purpose under people’s own rational decision making and free-will trump any reports and commissions undertaken by the establishment of the day. You know as well as I that there were a great many vested interests that were frightening the old order.

Manchester and Liverpool where most of the studies were made were under siege due to their economic upstart status and indeed the peterloo massacre and Manchester School of economics came from the desire to allow industry and free trade to flourish unhindered by the old vested interests.

The contradict evidence is the very social movement of the people themselves.

People generally don’t move en masse for anything but a better life...  

Let it never be said that I was silent when they needed me - William Wilberforce 

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Obadiah

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#40
09/08/2018 at 12:32

Quote Quote by exiled CITY AFC on 08/08/2018 at 17:44


The contradict evidence is the very social movement of the people themselves.

People generally don’t move en masse for anything but a better life...


Yes they moved for a better life, often at the point of a gun. The alternative was homelessness and starvation. Interesting you posted this yesterday, it was the anniversary Parliament passed an act making it easier to take away common land from those who had previously worked the land. One of the biggest factors in turning small scale farmers into industrial workers.

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exiled CITY AFC

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#41
09/08/2018 at 12:43

Nice ‘push’ theory but I don’t believe it.

Like we are seeing today people migrate when they can under their own steam and the possible becomes visible to them.

Let it never be said that I was silent when they needed me - William Wilberforce 

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candw

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#42
09/08/2018 at 14:54

So you still are happy to state that Communism hasn't worked because it can't work. Even though it hasn't been proved?

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Obadiah

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#43
09/08/2018 at 15:01

Quote Quote by exiled CITY AFC on 09/08/2018 at 12:43
Nice ‘push’ theory but I don’t believe it.

Like we are seeing today people migrate when they can under their own steam and the possible becomes visible to them.




You have an amazing lack of knowledge of British and Irish history. As you're younger than me it could be because of your history teachers. However that isn't really an excuse if you are really interested in how the agricultural and industrial revolutions made Great Britain the countries they are today.

There are many reasons why people migrate. To entice me to Manchester I would need to be offered a job that would make it worth my while.

A Rohingya Muslim might migrate to Bangladesh for other reasons.  

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exiled CITY AFC

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#44
09/08/2018 at 22:15

Quote Quote by candw on 09/08/2018 at 14:54
So you still are happy to state that Communism hasn't worked because it can't work. Even though it hasn't been proved?



Candy the arrogance of this line of reasoning is staggering.

Everyone who advances this argument is either saying...

If it was me in stalin’s Position the communist utopia would have been delivered in two decades and without the bloodshed or perhaps all it needed was a few million more dead and they would have got there or that somehow the right messianic communist leader hasn’t been delivered to us yet.

Personally I don’t think we can afford the corpses to give if how ever many attempts it will take to get there...

We all know where the line is when the right goes too far but it seems we don’t have that clarity for the left.

Let it never be said that I was silent when they needed me - William Wilberforce 

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candw

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#45
10/08/2018 at 11:25

Arrogance? With you it's ignorance. Messianic leaders are irrelevant, it's the pre-existing conditions needed before it is possible to move to Communism. We have seen State Capitalism fail on many occasions. Marx would have told you they were doomed to fail and they did.

Anyway, next time you read Marx, read that bit.

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Hull City Forum >> CI Football Plus >> Charidee, Anyone surprised?