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essexgull

8100 posts
First used 12/01/17

#46
07/11/2017 at 07:27

So was Brexit an attempt by a few to gain power, as many have suggested?

Or was this protest vote, as you have frequently named it, exempt from your stereotyping of all push for societal change?



ESSEX GULL

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candw

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25848 posts
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#47
07/11/2017 at 08:02

I was born to a poor, middle-class teacher, lived in a 2 up 2 down cottage with a cold tap in side and a toilet outside until I moved into a rather splendid council house at the age of 11. I think I know what it's like and how it could have been, but the better off - mostly born to it - have plundered this country from the Middle Ages onwards and kept back its development.

The "gangs" have often been demonstrably different from each other, often too close to each other for comfort and for the good of the country. The crack down on offshoring by the EU is to take place 15 minutes after we leave the club. Who said the Tories couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery?

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essexgull

8100 posts
First used 12/01/17

#48
07/11/2017 at 10:20

Necro-capitalism at it's finest.

Kill the goose out of greed, then bugger the corpse until the blood cools.


ESSEX GULL 

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exiled CITY AFC

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11150 posts
First used 11/01/17

#49
07/11/2017 at 12:20

Quote Quote by essexgull on 07/11/2017 at 07:27
So was Brexit an attempt by a few to gain power, as many have suggested?
Or was this protest vote, as you have frequently named it, exempt from your stereotyping of all push for societal change?
ESSEX GULL


No it was a majority so by definition could not be the few but you know as well as I that it was a result of years of undemocratic journeying towards a federal Europe increasingly run by a thinly accountable elite.

Let it never be said that I was silent when they needed me - William Wilberforce 

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candw

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#50
07/11/2017 at 12:25

Is this the same thinly unaccountable elite that run us now?

Oh yes, we can vote out the non-dom owners of the Mail, Sun etc can't we?

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theotherphantom

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#51
07/11/2017 at 12:40

Quote Quote by candw on 07/11/2017 at 12:25
Is this the same thinly unaccountable elite that run us now?

Oh yes, we can vote out the non-dom owners of the Mail, Sun etc can't we?


There was a sizeable "up yours!" element to the Brexit outcome and I recall thinking it was turkeys voting for Xmas. The only parties in which the majorities voted to Leave where the Tories (about 58%) and UKIP (c.98%, oddly enough). These were the parties on the right, so one might expect them to be the ones more likely to vote on race, but the Tory 58% probably weren't thinking there were sticking two fingers up at Cameron, so perhaps it was some of the Labour 37% or SNP 36% that did so. 

>>>>> 12th season in exile <<<<< 

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essexgull

8100 posts
First used 12/01/17

#52
07/11/2017 at 13:42

Quote Quote by exiled CITY AFC on 07/11/2017 at 12:20


No it was a majority so by definition could not be the few but you know as well as I that it was a result of years of undemocratic journeying towards a federal Europe increasingly run by a thinly accountable elite.



To be honest, it was reminiscent of a toddler smashing up his toy to spite his parents, but then it slowly dawning that he no longer has the toy, so having another tantrum.

If it was about voting out and punishing the disconnected elites, why vote the Tory party back in a year after.


ESSEX GULL



 

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theotherphantom

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#53
07/11/2017 at 15:53

Quote Quote by essexgull on 07/11/2017 at 13:42


To be honest, it was reminiscent of a toddler smashing up his toy to spite his parents, but then it slowly dawning that he no longer has the toy, so having another tantrum.

If it was about voting out and punishing the disconnected elites, why vote the Tory party back in a year after.


ESSEX GULL





Shades of grey. Some of it was about having a go at Cameron et al, not necessarily all of it. As for the Tories hanging on a year later, some remained convinced by Merde-och's comics that (despite history) Labour should never be allowed to get their hands on the treasury, and there was a huge improvement for Labour, despite the relentless attacks on Corbyn by all and sundry. 

>>>>> 12th season in exile <<<<< 

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essexgull

8100 posts
First used 12/01/17

#54
07/11/2017 at 16:32

Grimsby's MPs and businesses demanding tariff free access to the EU single market to sell their frozen fish products, despite 75% of the population voting out.

The population literally voted away their jobs. Who is to blame for this? Cameron?


ESSEX GULL  

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The Prince of Munster

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First used 20/01/17

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#55
07/11/2017 at 17:02

Quote Quote by essexgull on 07/11/2017 at 16:32
Grimsby's MPs and businesses demanding tariff free access to the EU single market to sell their frozen fish products, despite 75% of the population voting out.

The population literally voted away their jobs. Who is to blame for this? Cameron?


ESSEX GULL


To an extent, I’d say yes. Though it’s always simplistic to blame one person for the actions of the collective.

Cameron’s gov’t’s austerity and as-low-pay-as-possible-plus-high-inflatio n drive further isolated members of those commmunities who said “we’re voting out for genuine change because we never get it”.

The Tories majority was taken away at the last GE.

Is Brexit really going to stop German’s buying Young’s frozen scampi?

A further thing to take account of in places like Hull and Grimsby is that the EU is blamed for the decimation of the fishing industry - and the resulting hardship and economic decline associated with that. So history also plays a large part in the populations decision making.

Post edited on 07/11/2017 at 17:09 by The Prince of Munster

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essexgull

8100 posts
First used 12/01/17

#56
07/11/2017 at 17:09

But this is the madness of the decision I don't understand. Yes, Cameron was punished and lost his job, but he and his wife are millionaires many times over, able to retire to spend the next decades writing his memoirs. A factory worker filleting fish doesn't have that choice.

I'm no expert in frozen fish companies - Youngs and Findus UK been operating at a loss for over a decade, no? If prices rise 30%, it will have a bad impact.

ESSEX GULL  

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theotherphantom

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#57
07/11/2017 at 18:23

Quote Quote by essexgull on 07/11/2017 at 17:09
But this is the madness of the decision I don't understand. Yes, Cameron was punished and lost his job, but he and his wife are millionaires many times over, able to retire to spend the next decades writing his memoirs. A factory worker filleting fish doesn't have that choice.

I'm no expert in frozen fish companies - Youngs and Findus UK been operating at a loss for over a decade, no? If prices rise 30%, it will have a bad impact.

ESSEX GULL


Sure it was illogical. There's nothing understandable for you to understand. Was Cameron expected to resign? I didn't expect it. Most people didn't expect Leave to win. Undoubtedly some thought they were making a protest vote and regretted it a day later, but I've no idea how many that accounts for. At least when I make a protest vote in a General Election I know 100% that it won't make a difference.

You can't call these things on logic all the time. Look at the USA elections. Actually, maybe there was logic in there, but many refused to recognise it. The so-called Rust Belt, where jobs had long since disappeared to lower GDP nations, where willing workers no longer had local employers, where 8 years of Democrat rule had shown not a flicker of interest, though that maybe a change of party would do the trick, a non-career politician incumbent, a salesman with enough blarney to out-blarney a WI meeting... they had nothing to lose. And many despised Clinton for a long list of reasons.

I changed my mind daily for the fortnight before the vote. What finally made me vote Remain? The belief that the whole thing is only going to last another 5 or 10 years. 

>>>>> 12th season in exile <<<<< 

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The Prince of Munster

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Hull City

#58
08/11/2017 at 20:04

Quote Quote by essexgull on 07/11/2017 at 17:09
But this is the madness of the decision I don't understand. Yes, Cameron was punished and lost his job, but he and his wife are millionaires many times over, able to retire to spend the next decades writing his memoirs. A factory worker filleting fish doesn't have that choice.

I'm no expert in frozen fish companies - Youngs and Findus UK been operating at a loss for over a decade, no? If prices rise 30%, it will have a bad impact.

ESSEX GULL


I’m don’t profess to be an economic expert, but I don’t think Britain’s economy will fall off a cliff with Brexit.

Too many have too much to lose for that to happen.

The political establishment only have themselves to blame for the Brexit vote. They simply don’t listen and rarely do anything to make any significant change for the better.

The result was hardly surprising. 

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exiled CITY AFC

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11150 posts
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#59
09/11/2017 at 11:00

Gull, brexit was only bizarre if you were disconnected from the people who voted for it.

For those of us who Spend time in Hull with regular working class folk it was clear what and why they would vote.

The sum of the perceived harms of decades of moving towards a federalised Europe FAR outweighed the sum of the perceived benefits.

I can see the contrast clearly as I live in a booming metropolitan city that voted to remain - why because for them the perceived benefits obviously outweighs the sum of perceived harms.

However:- there was another aspect.

Economically a place like Hull can look at a place like Manchester and London and think WTF? Why can't we get some of that economic action but also they can see the social impact of the EU and think NO WAY do we want THAT.

My mother who has been RED as fuck all her life has quit this city after Somali's broke into her flats and squatted in the maintenance space for 7weeks. Not only did they make a right mess and assaulting a female resident who dared to tell them to put their stair well BBQ (I kid you not) out. The police were called on a number of occasions and met with violence on one side and council appeasement on the other.

No wonder people are saying fuck-it. It ain't all about money. She has opted to be poorer and is moving back to Hull to be in a place with less immigrants. Frankly she can do without EU enabled shit like that above.

So to the nation as a whole - we are, were, and were forever going to be a net contributor to the EU and so it was always a loss on the nations balance sheet. For that we got some benefits BUT the country as a whole weighed it all up and determined that the sum of the downsides was not enough for the sum of the upsides.

I don't know if you saw but the nations key Happiness and well-being scores are up for the first full year since Brexit.  

Let it never be said that I was silent when they needed me - William Wilberforce 

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essexgull

8100 posts
First used 12/01/17

#60
09/11/2017 at 16:54

I think the point is that the British public couldnt have weighed it up properly because they werent given the right information.

Farmers, fisherman, factories, manufacturers and services all asking for exemptions from Brexit...

Add it together with May's disastrous handling of the last 18 months and how the UK has become a laughing stock internationally - it doesn't bode well for the future.




ESSEX GULL 

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