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exiled CITY AFC

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#1
21/06/2017 at 18:55

Grenfell residents expressly asked for it not to happen...

Sad 

Let it never be said that I was silent when they needed me - William Wilberforce 

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candw

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#2
21/06/2017 at 20:34

Bless!

It's a precursor of the "Day of Really Quite Upset" march tomorrow. Much more to the liking of you Rightists I suppose. Well, if you're not foxhunting that is.

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exiled CITY AFC

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#3
21/06/2017 at 23:47

Poor turn out yet still descends into violence

Organised by this veteran revolutionary who has a conviction for violence https://goo.gl/images/4sQsHd

Amazing these 70+ year old geezers are now the 'fresh face' of politics and have all the new ideas according to Ver-kids 

Let it never be said that I was silent when they needed me - William Wilberforce 

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candw

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#4
22/06/2017 at 07:59

Like Huddersfield Lads away at Hull, but more shouting and fewer punches.

Anyway - Ver-kids? LOL! How are the REAL new ideas getting on? Neo-Liberalism and the old Trickle Down Theory? Shit, eh? People are really pissed off with stagnation at best, while the rich get constantly richer and still don't pay all their taxes. Back to the future.

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candw

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#5
22/06/2017 at 08:45

Grenfell residents expressly asked for adequate safety provision for their homes.

Sad

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charon-the-ferryman

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#6
24/06/2017 at 02:12

any news of the Day of Rage against Camden Council - what a total fuck up there - gas pipes not lagged properly, inadequate fire doors, Council saved money by installing cheap cladding - been there over 10 years and presumably passed the annual fire test - no doubt Corbyn was overcome with emotion 

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exiled CITY AFC

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#7
24/06/2017 at 03:36

How does this happen with the legion of building inspectors, health and safety types, council staff paid to get all this right?


Plenty asleep on their watch for this matter it seems - no matter what party runs the council.


Evil capitalists or fucking lazy bastards?

You decide  

Let it never be said that I was silent when they needed me - William Wilberforce 

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essexgull

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#8
24/06/2017 at 10:05

Watching these council blocks being evacuated, it's clear that 99% of the population of these social housing apartments are foreign and fairly recent arrivals. Together with ONS figures released last week that London's population has increased by 2 million since 2010...

Incredible that the UK taxpayer is subsidising these people and their families to live in central London, but not essential workers.


ESSEX GULL 

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Obadiah

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#9
24/06/2017 at 10:54

Quote Quote by exiled CITY AFC on 24/06/2017 at 03:36
How does this happen with the legion of building inspectors, health and safety types, council staff paid to get all this right?


Plenty asleep on their watch for this matter it seems - no matter what party runs the council.


Evil capitalists or fucking lazy bastards?

You decide


It starts here:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree /2017/jun/15/grenfell-tower-red-tape-safe ty-deregulation

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candw

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#10
24/06/2017 at 11:27

Quote Quote by charon-the-ferryman on 24/06/2017 at 02:12
any news of the Day of Rage against Camden Council - what a total fuck up there - gas pipes not lagged properly, inadequate fire doors, Council saved money by installing cheap cladding - been there over 10 years and presumably passed the annual fire test - no doubt Corbyn was overcome with emotion


Sorry old boy, but your "equaliser" is completely inadequate. The Tories have such a huge lead with the deaths that I'd advise you to give up.

I've tried to look it up, but haven't got a clear picture yet. The council are considering action as the cladding was not of the correct standard requested. Perhaps you can tell me if the Councils used their own building staff for the upgrades, or did they put it out to tender to private enterprise.

People really should not trust the 'privates'. If there's a loophole of any description, they'll exploit it.

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candw

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#11
24/06/2017 at 11:34

Quote Quote by exiled CITY AFC on 24/06/2017 at 03:36
How does this happen with the legion of building inspectors, health and safety types, council staff paid to get all this right?

Do you have a number for Camden council's 'legion' of inspectors? Or is this Private Think on council staff?

Plenty asleep on their watch for this matter it seems - no matter what party runs the council.

Don't forget, however, that it's the 'sitting on' a fire report for 4 years, by the Tories, that is being raged.

Evil capitalists or fucking lazy bastards?

Evil capitalists and fucking lazy bastards would be my decision.

 

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candw

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#12
24/06/2017 at 11:37

"ONE IN, THREE OUT!" was the Tory cry on regulations. "BONFIRE OF THE RED TAPE!", an unfortunate phrase in the circumstances.

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candw

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#13
24/06/2017 at 11:38

Incredible that the UK taxpayer is subsidising these people and their families to live in central London, but not essential workers.

Sorry, but are you suggesting essential workers should be burnt to death before immigrants?

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charon-the-ferryman

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#14
24/06/2017 at 11:54

Quote Quote by candw on 24/06/2017 at 11:27


Sorry old boy, but your "equaliser" is completely inadequate. The Tories have such a huge lead with the deaths that I'd advise you to give up.

I've tried to look it up, but haven't got a clear picture yet. The council are considering action as the cladding was not of the correct standard requested. Perhaps you can tell me if the Councils used their own building staff for the upgrades, or did they put it out to tender to private enterprise.

People really should not trust the 'privates'. If there's a loophole of any description, they'll exploit it.


so it's ok to install cheap cladding so long as no-one gets burned - it really makes you wonder why Labour decided to save £2 a tile during a period of a Labour Government that had opened the floodgates in much the same way Viv Nicholson did 

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candw

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#15
24/06/2017 at 12:08

No, but when urgent recommendations are made to the government by a coroner, with specific reference to these tiles, and it is 'shelved', that's the concern. And in both cases the council specified a perticular type of tile and the private company cheated.

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candw

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#16
24/06/2017 at 12:15

And NO, it doesn't make it OK for the Tories to do today what Labour did 10 years ago.

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exiled CITY AFC

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#17
24/06/2017 at 13:13

Candy as predicted there are now councils, hotels, office blocks etc up and down the county finding out they are in exactly the same position. If you didn't think this was going to be pan-political then you are either stupid or having been living in a bubble..

The police have finally released the model number of the fridge and confirmed that the tiles didn't even meet the standard.

We all know that the regulations and red tape that have grown up over Decades don't make much safer they just provide a box ticking and arse covering for everyone down the line. What we find will be an indictment on modern Britain its love of red tape, zero responsibility and armies of non-value-added layers of bureaucrats that kill our productivity.

Left and right will be complicit - the only difference will be on whose roulette colour the actual fire happened.  

Let it never be said that I was silent when they needed me - William Wilberforce 

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charon-the-ferryman

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#18
24/06/2017 at 13:50

Quote Quote by candw on 24/06/2017 at 12:08
No, but when urgent recommendations are made to the government by a coroner, with specific reference to these tiles, and it is 'shelved', that's the concern. And in both cases the council specified a perticular type of tile and the private company cheated.


'perticular' - the only thing that is consistent across all these cases is public sector council workers  

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candw

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#19
24/06/2017 at 15:35

Tories lie, you're a Tory, so you write council for private sector. It has been noted.

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candw

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#20
24/06/2017 at 15:45

We all know that the regulations and red tape that have grown up over Decades don't make much safer they just provide a box ticking and arse covering for everyone down the line.

Nonsense. That's not the regulations themselves, it's the attitude of people in this country to work.

What we find will be an indictment on modern Britain its love of red tape, zero responsibility and armies of non-value-added layers of bureaucrats that kill our productivity.

It's hatred of regulations - red tape to make it sound evil - and any standards imposed. Individual responsibility should be taken and above these are people charged with making sure regulations are followed. "Armies" Bureaucrats kill out productivity, in your opinion, regulation dodging kills people.

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exiled CITY AFC

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#21
25/06/2017 at 00:53

It's clear that people stop complying to regulations as soon as they become more of a burden than the actual work. Same with signs and instructions. Don't believe me?

When you download stuff from the Internet or read through pages of terms and conditions you always read it before ticking 'I Agree' do you?

Do you fuck - and if you think everyone whose job involves reams and reams of similar shit is spent pouring over the fine details of regulations is some kind of forensic form follower you are sadly mistaken.

Let it never be said that I was silent when they needed me - William Wilberforce 

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candw

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#22
25/06/2017 at 08:40

...is spent pouring over the fine details of regulations...

Jim: Where have you got to?

Bill: Fire fucking regulations

Jim: What's it say?

Bill: Fuck it, I can't be arsed.

Should never be heard ANYWHERE.

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candw

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#23
25/06/2017 at 09:25

...is spent pouring over the fine details of regulations...

Jim: Where have you got to?

Bill: Fire fucking regulations

Jim: What's it say?

Bill: Fuck it, I can't be arsed.

Should never be heard ANYWHERE.

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exiled CITY AFC

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#24
25/06/2017 at 12:45

Quote Quote by candw on 25/06/2017 at 08:40
...is spent pouring over the fine details of regulations...

Jim: Where have you got to?

Bill: Fire fucking regulations

Jim: What's it say?

Bill: Fuck it, I can't be arsed.

Should never be heard ANYWHERE.


Shouldn't but it clearly has up and down the land. There are fucking armies of office workers who have a hard hat and high viz jacket by their desks whose job it is to do this stuff, Our construction sector has one of the highest productivity records in Europe at actually laying bricks and pouring concrete but the lowest when you add all the pen pushers, supervisors, rsk managers, health and safety etc. The result is low productivity and shit buildings - well done brilliant  

Let it never be said that I was silent when they needed me - William Wilberforce 

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charon-the-ferryman

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#25
25/06/2017 at 13:26

and most of the staff checking health and safety probably went on a half day training course to consider trip hazards etc - totally inadequate - been there done that 

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candw

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#26
25/06/2017 at 13:46

Let's hope that all the "fuck the red tapers " end up in jail for a long time! 

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essexgull

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#27
25/06/2017 at 14:19

Quote Quote by charon-the-ferryman on 25/06/2017 at 13:26
and most of the staff checking health and safety probably went on a half day training course to consider trip hazards etc - totally inadequate - been there done that


UK construction sites are some of the safest in the world. Deaths have halved over the last thirty years.

That indicates the health and safety regulations are working.

I'll take the hard factual data over your 'probably' statements.


ESSEX GULL 

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candw

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#28
25/06/2017 at 14:53

Quote Quote by charon-the-ferryman on 25/06/2017 at 13:26
and most of the staff checking health and safety probably went on a half day training course to consider trip hazards etc - totally inadequate - been there done that


Of course they are. Of course you have. You are the biggest advertisement for the need for rigorous H&S rules on this board. Well, along with Lord Saccharin, of course. He's so stupid he compares fire regulations for tower blocks with people not reading all the instructions for their iPad.

I can't believe you are arguing as you are just after people burned to death because substandard cladding was used. And that it was fixed incorrectly.

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exiled CITY AFC

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#29
25/06/2017 at 17:45

Quote Quote by essexgull on 25/06/2017 at 14:19


UK construction sites are some of the safest in the world. Deaths have halved over the last thirty years.

That indicates the health and safety regulations are working.

I'll take the hard factual data over your 'probably' statements.


ESSEX GULL


They have done this but at the expense of productivity because British mentality is add someone checking rather than engineer out the intrinsic danger - there are plenty of other nations and sectors where they have solved the safety without screwing productivity. We excel at creating jobs where people love telling you NO but not how.

Jobsworths are a uniquely British invention 

Let it never be said that I was silent when they needed me - William Wilberforce 

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essexgull

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#30
25/06/2017 at 17:55

The majority of accidents on construction sites are caused by fairly mundane reasons... Falls, trips, equipment dropping. If a safety inspector walking around reminding workers to be careful, keep the workplace tidy of hazards and penalising those who refuse to wear harnesses near edges, is effectively halving the death rate from thirty years ago, they're hardly a jobsworth.

I take it that you and Charon don't work as labourers on construction sites, so health and safety rules are seen merely as hindering speed and productivity rather than protecting those working at the coalface.

This forum delights in listing the numbers killed by communism, it would be interesting if the usual suspects quantified those killed due to the greed and pursuit of profit of those urgently seeking it.


ESSEX GULL 

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candw

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#31
25/06/2017 at 20:24

You're a fucking clown, exiled. Like the Tories and David Cameron in particular. "The Bonfire of Red Tape" will mean that the "Bonfire of the Council Tenants" will become a regular occurrence. Well, had people not marched in rage; now they will think twice.

Oh, I suppose you noticed that private landlords are not mandated to check cladding, etc. But then, 72 Tory landlords would have to pay for that, rather than the council tax payers. You can roast 'em if you're a toff!

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theotherphantom

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#32
25/06/2017 at 21:26

Indeed. It was Tory landlords who decided the private members bill from a Labour MP requiring let properties to be fit for human habitation would be talked out. God* forbid that it might cost landlords a few bob to make their properties safe.



* also no help. 

>>>>> 12th season in exile <<<<< 

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exiled CITY AFC

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#33
25/06/2017 at 21:39

You really think that the pursuit of profit is really something different to just good old human activity don't you...?

I have seen it all on HSE as I have worked in virtually every sector and yes including construction. I'll bet for sure I have spent more time in PPE and had more HSE training than you and candice.

I have seen a safety officer hospitalised by a pallet of safety helmets dropping from height onto his un-helmeted head, I have been to mines in Russia that killed 9 people a year before I helped them to get it down to zero within a year and since.

Having seen sites all over the world the U.K. Safety culture is the rules will fix it but they don't."

Sure things have gotten better but the now 60+ buildings with 'firelighters for cladding' over more than 25 local councils shows us that either profit or not for profit the current regime ain't working is it?

The most productive workplaces are invariably the safest btw - take a little while to wonder why and then why you assuming the opposite belief from myself and Charon would indicate ignorance of the highest order. 

Let it never be said that I was silent when they needed me - William Wilberforce 

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candw

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#34
25/06/2017 at 22:01

Quote Quote by exiled CITY AFC on 25/06/2017 at 21:39
You really think that the pursuit of profit is really something different to just good old human activity don't you...?

If it is at the expense of safety, or decency, or...lots of things, then YES.

I have seen it all on HSE as I have worked in virtually every sector and yes including construction. I'll bet for sure I have spent more time in PPE and had more HSE training than you and candice.

You've also aced Acronym 101, dude.

I have seen a safety officer hospitalised by a pallet of safety helmets dropping from height onto his un-helmeted head, I have been to mines in Russia that killed 9 people a year before I helped them to get it down to zero within a year and since.

Right. So safety regulations are good? Yes?

Having seen sites all over the world the U.K. Safety culture is the rules will fix it but they don't."

So what fixes it? Lack of rules? Not following the rules?

Sure things have gotten better but the now 60+ buildings with 'firelighters for cladding' over more than 25 local councils shows us that either profit or not for profit the current regime ain't working is it?

There's no "not for profit" in it. All the buildings were built or renovated or clad by for profit PriSec companies.

The most productive workplaces are invariably the safest btw - take a little while to wonder why and then why you assuming the opposite belief from myself and Charon would indicate ignorance of the highest order.

The safest workplaces are invariably the most productive, btw. Yes?

Safety regulations = safety regulations, to misquote May. Safety regulations =/= red tape.

 

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exiled CITY AFC

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#35
26/06/2017 at 02:19

The way to make work safe is to make the work inherently safe (through innovation) not add a check list and a couple of goons with clipboards watching you.

One keeps the productivity and often improves it the other approach divides it by three and leads to box ticking.

You know nothing abo the subject yet you throw your assumptions left right and centre.

There is an intelligent way to achieve safety and the idiots way.

Anyway back on topic what about the >10k marching peacefully in London today?

Why no media coverage of the football lads alliance? 

Let it never be said that I was silent when they needed me - William Wilberforce 

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candw

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#36
26/06/2017 at 07:47

The way to make work safe is to make the work inherently safe (through innovation) not add a check list and a couple of goons with clipboards watching you.

"goons with clipboards". Obviously you know all about the subject.

Anyway, it's from the 'entrepreneurs' private sector that we will expect this innovation although, at present, they seem to stick on substandard cladding and charge the full price and motor manufacturers cheat emission figures and private enterprise, in general, shows that it needs watching like a hawk.  

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exiled CITY AFC

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#37
26/06/2017 at 10:34

Two examples from millions of human activities make a rule eh?

So no only can you not Interpret data objectively and in context, nor follow an argument made in principle but you lurch from one hastily made conclusion to another based on poltical dogma made by a belief paradigm. Is it safe to say you were never a teacher of e rational science based subjects.

Imagine me making that kind of conclusion. - it would be sure to have and 'ism' on the end to label it. 

Let it never be said that I was silent when they needed me - William Wilberforce 

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candw

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#38
26/06/2017 at 10:54

Quote Quote by exiled CITY AFC on 26/06/2017 at 10:34
Two examples from millions of human activities make a rule eh?

So no only can you not Interpret data objectively and in context, nor follow an argument made in principle but you lurch from one hastily made conclusion to another based on poltical dogma made by a belief paradigm. Is it safe to say you were never a teacher of e rational science based subjects.

Imagine me making that kind of conclusion. - it would be sure to have and 'ism' on the end to label it.


Fucking hell, how many examples do you want? If you can't follow an argument from a couple of examples, how many would you need? I don't "lurch" and I don't do "belief paradigms" and you argument is made "in principle", but the principle is that government/inspectors regulations BAD, privates will do it right unchecked GOOD. Dream on!

I taught Maths and Physics.

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candw

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#39
26/06/2017 at 11:57

Here's one I found earlier.

Privately rented accommodation (Regulation - must be fit for human habitation. Unnecessary.

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Hulltim8 City AFC

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#40
26/06/2017 at 11:59

Quote Quote by candw on 26/06/2017 at 10:54


Fucking hell, how many examples do you want? If you can't follow an argument from a couple of examples, how many would you need? I don't "lurch" and I don't do "belief paradigms" and you argument is made "in principle", but the principle is that government/inspectors regulations BAD, privates will do it right unchecked GOOD. Dream on!

I taught Maths and Physics.


I hope Abbott wasn't one of your pupils. 

2005 Labour got 355 seats from 35.2 % of the vote on a 62.4% turnout. 2015 Tories got 331 seats from 36.9% of the vote on a 661% turnout. Left wing fannies moan the second one is sooooo unfair and we need electoral reform. But didn't utter a peep,about the first one. 

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exiled CITY AFC

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#41
26/06/2017 at 14:02

Quote Quote by candw on 26/06/2017 at 10:54


Fucking hell, how many examples do you want? If you can't follow an argument from a couple of examples, how many would you need? I don't "lurch" and I don't do "belief paradigms" and you argument is made "in principle", but the principle is that government/inspectors regulations BAD, privates will do it right unchecked GOOD. Dream on!

I taught Maths and Physics.


I am still trying to recover from this amazing revaluation.

I follow your arguments from a couple of examples really well but know from my own physics studies that one data source does not prove a hypothesis. Koons proved that cognitive bias will prevent even otherwise rational scientists to be incapable of seeing data their personal paradigms don't agree with.

I don't believe govt good private bad or vice Versa the former seems to be your fixed belief. You constantly fly in the face of data. We now know that more than 60 buildings are similar death traps - we still don't know how many hotpoint fridges are faulty - but we do know those buildings are a variety of cases some which have
ELEMENTS that fit your hypothesis and some that don't. Deep down I know you want the private sector elements of this chain to be guilty of killing people but the reality is it was a team effort in all cases. It will all come out in the wash and then we can reflect on what to do but meanwhile rational adults should behave accordingly.  

Let it never be said that I was silent when they needed me - William Wilberforce 

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candw

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#42
26/06/2017 at 15:35

Quote Quote by exiled CITY AFC on 26/06/2017 at 14:02


I am still trying to recover from this amazing revaluation.

That's probably because you are ignorant and bigoted.

I follow your arguments from a couple of examples really well but know from my own physics studies that one data source does not prove a hypothesis. Koons proved that cognitive bias will prevent even otherwise rational scientists to be incapable of seeing data their personal paradigms don't agree with.

Sounds cool. Does it mean anything? Does it mean that regulation is bad? Or that regulation is not necessary?

I don't believe govt good private bad or vice Versa the former seems to be your fixed belief. You constantly fly in the face of data. We now know that more than 60 buildings are similar death traps - we still don't know how many hotpoint fridges are faulty - but we do know those buildings are a variety of cases some which have ELEMENTS that fit your hypothesis and some that don't.

The 60 buildings have dodgy cladding that save the firms concerned a few bob. However many Hotpoint fridges there are BUILDINGS DON'T BURN TO THE GROUND IN SECONDS because of fridges catching fire.

Deep down I know you want the private sector elements of this chain to be guilty of killing people but the reality is it was a team effort in all cases. It will all come out in the wash and then we can reflect on what to do but meanwhile rational adults should behave accordingly.

I want the people who fitted dodgy tiles to be heavily shafted and, if the council signed off the deal to save a few bob, or looked the other way at regulations being broken, I want them hammered too. If the council did it, it's because they settled for £9.4 million rather than £11.6 million. It's my feeling that the council took a bit of the savings on a nod and a wink.
 

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candw

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#43
26/06/2017 at 15:37

Quote Quote by Hulltim8 City AFC on 26/06/2017 at 11:59


I hope Abbott wasn't one of your pupils.


I'm pretty sure she wasn't. I'm also pretty sure that the Tory, who costed school breakfasts at 6.8p per pupil, wasn't either. And as for Phil Hammond...

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exiled CITY AFC

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#44
26/06/2017 at 21:38

Quote Quote by candw on 26/06/2017 at 15:35



Thank fuck you never joined the police.

Decide the crime and the guilty then find the evidence to fit.... 

Let it never be said that I was silent when they needed me - William Wilberforce 

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candw

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#45
26/06/2017 at 21:49

I really don't understand why you find it difficult to admit this government - last, actually - for nor acting on the enquiry's recommendation after the Lakanal fire. I don't see why you are trying not to condemn the makers of combustible cladding for homes. I can't see why you don't condemn the firm for fitting cheaper tiles than were specified. And I can't see why you are toying with the idea of blaming the fridge.

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exiled CITY AFC

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#46
26/06/2017 at 22:36

Because it's likely that EVERY Step in the long and convoluted process that has been allowed to grow around fire safety will throw up outrages and buck psssing. I will wait for the evidence and then be commenting.  

Let it never be said that I was silent when they needed me - William Wilberforce 

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Obadiah

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#47
26/06/2017 at 23:10

A piece of evidence out of the suppliers mouth. The cladding isn't safe and will now be withdrawn. Of course after Grenfell it would leave the US company open to all sorts of litigation if it happened again. Maybe they'll be hoping to supply the replacement cladding as well.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40409981

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imperishablehcfc

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Hull City

#48
26/06/2017 at 23:41

David Lammy what a cunt.

Tweeting inflammatory shit and then totally unwilling to answer questions about whether he actually believes the shit he's tweeting. 

Fuck the short term we will build a 1000 year Hull City Reich 

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